This is a follow-up to the “nub” connection that I described in my last blog. In this blog I will provide the test results of the “nub” connection that I have so far. Since this mono/spectra connection design is primarily for large mono, the test results are based on Izorline 135# First String mono connected to Izorline 200# hollow spectra.
I recommend that you insert the mono into the hollow spectra 5 feet (others use 3
feet with success, but I use 5 feet because it has been very successful for me). I made
up five test specimen connections with way less than 5 feet of insertion
(due to the limitation of the testing machine.) I tested
these five specimens on the same Izorline test machine that is used for the knot-tying contest at the Fred Hall show. In all five tests, the “nub” connection was a 100% connection with either the spectra or mono breaking. The breaking loads ranged from 170# to 196#. The spectra broke in four of the test, but in all four tests, the spectra broke where it was anchored to the test machine. On the test where the mono broke, I ran the load up gradually until I reached 183# and then stopped the test machine. As the mono stretched, the load reduced down to 140#. After 1 hr and 20 minutes, the mono broke d
ue to the necking down from the stretching over time.
The photo with the lavender background is one of the test
specimens. Notice the black mark on the mono. That was the point on the mono that was at the top of the red nail knot before being pulled. This indicates how much stretch the mono goes through (under 183#
of load). The wrinkled spectra between the dark green and red nail knot is an indication of how much more the mono stretches than the spectra. This also indicates that if you have more than one nail knot on top of the hollow spectra, at least one of them will have to slip to accommodate the difference in stretch between the mono and the spectra. This may indicate that you only want to use one nail knot (or crimp) on a connection. I am still evaluating this affect to determine if it is advisable to use more than one nail knot on the outside of the spectra.
As further verification of the “nub” connection, Accurate Pro Staff, Leo Reihsen tested a prototype “nub” connection on the Red Rooster 3 June Heat trip sponsored by Accurate. I installed this connection on an ATD 50 reel. Leo hook around 15 sharks and in his impatience he cranked the sharks to the boat with the reel drag at full (he did not care if anything broke, as it was not a tuna). Leo mailed the connection back to me and you can see what it looks like in the green background photo. Note that the connection looks very
similar to the test specimen with the wrinkled spectra. This connection did not fail. Leo replaced it because he did not understand the wrinkled spectra.
In an attempt to make further improvements to the “nub” portion of the connection, I have made tests that show the nub can hold between 40# and 100# of load. These loads are driven by the fact that the mono necks down at these loads. I have successfully tested four gluing approaches for the nub that can maintain a non-slipping grip on the mono when the mono is loaded and stretched to 177.5# (mono broke).
Given all of this data, I believe that the nub system is showing promise as a viable system for connecting mono to hollow spectra. I will continue to do lab testing at Izorline and can not wait for the fall to do some ocean testing when the long range boats go down to “the Beach” looking for Cows. I will be on the following Accurate sponsored trips: Red Rooster 3 on Dec 12 – 22 and American Angler Jan 5-16. I will be happy to share detailed information on the connection with you on any of these trips. I will also be happy to make one of these connections for you to try and would love to hear what you think. Each of us will have to decide what we think works and what we are capable of using/installing. I am trying to provide you my data so that you can make your own evaluation without having to do all the testing and data collection. (The on-ocean testing is a lot more fun than the lab testing,
Thanks for looking at my blog,
Gary Teraoka
I recommend that you insert the mono into the hollow spectra 5 feet (others use 3
feet with success, but I use 5 feet because it has been very successful for me). I made
up five test specimen connections with way less than 5 feet of insertion
(due to the limitation of the testing machine.) I tested
these five specimens on the same Izorline test machine that is used for the knot-tying contest at the Fred Hall show. In all five tests, the “nub” connection was a 100% connection with either the spectra or mono breaking. The breaking loads ranged from 170# to 196#. The spectra broke in four of the test, but in all four tests, the spectra broke where it was anchored to the test machine. On the test where the mono broke, I ran the load up gradually until I reached 183# and then stopped the test machine. As the mono stretched, the load reduced down to 140#. After 1 hr and 20 minutes, the mono broke d
ue to the necking down from the stretching over time.
The photo with the lavender background is one of the test
specimens. Notice the black mark on the mono. That was the point on the mono that was at the top of the red nail knot before being pulled. This indicates how much stretch the mono goes through (under 183#
of load). The wrinkled spectra between the dark green and red nail knot is an indication of how much more the mono stretches than the spectra. This also indicates that if you have more than one nail knot on top of the hollow spectra, at least one of them will have to slip to accommodate the difference in stretch between the mono and the spectra. This may indicate that you only want to use one nail knot (or crimp) on a connection. I am still evaluating this affect to determine if it is advisable to use more than one nail knot on the outside of the spectra.
As further verification of the “nub” connection, Accurate Pro Staff, Leo Reihsen tested a prototype “nub” connection on the Red Rooster 3 June Heat trip sponsored by Accurate. I installed this connection on an ATD 50 reel. Leo hook around 15 sharks and in his impatience he cranked the sharks to the boat with the reel drag at full (he did not care if anything broke, as it was not a tuna). Leo mailed the connection back to me and you can see what it looks like in the green background photo. Note that the connection looks very
similar to the test specimen with the wrinkled spectra. This connection did not fail. Leo replaced it because he did not understand the wrinkled spectra.
In an attempt to make further improvements to the “nub” portion of the connection, I have made tests that show the nub can hold between 40# and 100# of load. These loads are driven by the fact that the mono necks down at these loads. I have successfully tested four gluing approaches for the nub that can maintain a non-slipping grip on the mono when the mono is loaded and stretched to 177.5# (mono broke).
Given all of this data, I believe that the nub system is showing promise as a viable system for connecting mono to hollow spectra. I will continue to do lab testing at Izorline and can not wait for the fall to do some ocean testing when the long range boats go down to “the Beach” looking for Cows. I will be on the following Accurate sponsored trips: Red Rooster 3 on Dec 12 – 22 and American Angler Jan 5-16. I will be happy to share detailed information on the connection with you on any of these trips. I will also be happy to make one of these connections for you to try and would love to hear what you think. Each of us will have to decide what we think works and what we are capable of using/installing. I am trying to provide you my data so that you can make your own evaluation without having to do all the testing and data collection. (The on-ocean testing is a lot more fun than the lab testing,
Thanks for looking at my blog,
Gary Teraoka
Gary,
ReplyDeleteI'm very interested in the content of your blog. I just returned from a 5-day trip on the Independence during which I unfortunately lost a nice yellowfin while using a 30# blackwater fluoro wind-on leader that I had made. After being hooked up for 5-10 minutes, all of a sudden the line went slack and when I reeled it in the only thing missing was the fluoro and hook. The spectra, serve, and crimp were all still in place.
I called Jerry Brown last week to talk to him about the problem, and he gave me a few ideas. However, after doing a bit more research, it appears that others have experienced the same problem. Therefore, when I came across your blog thru SenorTuna, I was quite interested.
Several questions for you, if I could:
1. Is your technology only available to people who go on your long range trips? Hope not, because I can only afford one long range trip a year.
2. You mention a "special tool" to tighten the nail knots. Do you sell this, or can you describe it. One thing that Jerry Brown brought to my attention is the fact that I probably was not pulling by serves tight enough as I made them.
3. You mention a modification of your initial system to be used for lighter lines. Can you expand on that?
4. It would appear that the major source of this problem is the fact that the mono stretches, thereby shrinking the diameter and, evidently, allowing the mono to slip out of the clutches of the spectra. Supposedly, fluoro doesn't stretch nearly as much. Any comments about the application of fluoro in topshots relative to this problem?
5. Jerry Brown states that glues have a very hard time adherring to fluoro. He says his glue works, but not nearly as well as it does on mono. Any comments?
6. Your latest blog of 7/12/08 shows the wrinkling of the spectra between the two nail knots on the outside of the spectra. Several thoughts on that one. First, what would happen if one tied a loooong nail knot that ran from the main nail knot all the way to the end of the spectra? Second, what about putting a piece of shrink tubing between the two nail knots?
Again, I really appreciate your efforts in this regard. Look forward to hearing back from you.
Bob
Hi Bob L.
ReplyDeleteSorry for not seeing your comment until Nov 13. I've been working on making wind-ons with my connection for some friends that are leaving on 12 and 11 day trips this week. The special tool is just a pair of rods to pull the tag ends of the nail knot spectra. The size and amount of friction material has been optimized after hundreds of tries.
This "nub" connection is designed for 135# Izorline mono to 200H Izorline spectra for fishing 200# tuna. However, for 60# and smaller lines, I use a 5 ft section of WAXED dacron. I insert the spectra from the main line about 6 inches into one end of the dacron. I use a nail knot to anchor that end of the dacron. I insert the mono into the other end of the dacron (about 6 inches) and secure this end of the dacron with another nail knot. These nail knots are pulled so tight that the plastic that is part of the spectra dying process squeezes out and turns a shinny translucent color. Be careful not to pull so hard that you break the spectra being used for the nail knots. The wax in the dacron adds so much more friction that you only need to insert 6 inches (rather than 5 ft with spectra) At these line sizes, the dacron is small enough to not warrant using spectra. You can rebuild this system much fast than inserting the mono 5 ft into spectra. I have rebuilt this version in 5 minutes while on the deck of the boat. You can also just tie a overhand knot on the ends of the dacron. It is larger and not as strong, but will be able to take the pressures of the correct drag setting that you should be using for these line sizes. I am a Izorline guy and I normally do not use fluorocarbon. I have been doing all of my development work with Izorline mono and Izorline spectra. I also have been using Swifty's glue in developing my connections. It is the most flexible of the glues that I have tried and I know the Swifty folks and am familiar with the objectives of the details of their glue.
I know several of the Blackwater guys and have started to play around with their spectra and fluorocarbon to let them try my connection. I'll know how well it works with Blackwater after the upcoming Accurate sponsored Red Rooster 3 trip (Nov 15-26). I did notice a difference in behavior between Blackwater and Izorline 200# spectra so I made a couple of adjustments for the Blackwater spectra to account for the different characteristics.
The wrinkled spectra is an indication that the mono was stretching more than the spectra at that point. This is consistent with the fact that it takes about 6 to 12 inches for the spectra to grab the mono tight enough to not let the mono slip or stretch any differently than the spectra. (I was able to replicate this on the Izorline test machine. I was able to mark the mono and watched the mono stretch, relative to the spectra, but not slip and then saw the wrinkled spectra when the load was removed.) Since we glue closer than 6 - 12 inches from the end of the spectra, we should expect the mono and spectra to move relative to each other (different amount of stretching). Nothing we can do about this, as this is just a characteristic of this type connection. There is a small amount of slippage of the mono that takes place when the mono is loaded or re-loaded. Preventing that slippage is one of the primary reasons that I have been developing the "nub" feature in my connection to combat this affect. Don't confuse mono slippage with different amount stretch between mono and spectra.
I hope I addressed your questions. Thanks for asking and I apologize for not replying sooner.
Gary
Gary,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your response. In the interim I have come across an interesting alternative for serving, the PR Bobbin. It's available from New Zealand. Link is:
http://www.jigsdirect.com/eMerchantPro/pc/fishing_knots.asp
This device seems to have promise. I end up with very tight serves, any number of turns I want, and very fast.
Would be interested in your comments.
Thanks again.
Bob
Hi Bob,
ReplyDeleteI am glad that you received my belated reply. One of the features of the nub connection that I have been working on is that I do not need any line holders or clamps. All I need is a small roll of 30# spectra and my small pulling rods. I can carry this in my pocket. Some of my fishing friends serve and their connections do real well. Have you seen the demonstration on the Blackwater web site? Dean is the tech rep and has one of the cleanest serves that you will ever see. The reality of all these connections is that a good sound installation of a credible connection will usually work. The specific difference between different credible connections is what unique "margin or safety" it provides. Crimps have provided me very good results. However, I started working on the nub connection because of some of the failures that I witnessed from other people's connections. I am expecting the nub to provide more margin with less cost and less stuff (junk you have to carry around to make the connection on the boat). Time will tell how reliable the nub is. As we speak, there are over 4 dozen nub connections on two different 10 day long range trips right now. (that is what I was busy making for a number of testers) I'll try to summarize the results after I hear back from the testers. The nub connection is about the smallest connection and does not require a lot of support equipment. You use about 4 cents of spectra for each nail knot. My honest answer to your question is whatever connection that you can consistently and correctly install is the one to use. This is a similar answer that I give to the which mono knot should I use to tie the hook. It doesn't need to be the strongest, it just needs to be strong enough, but it does have to be reliable (this also means repeatable, consistent and dependable). If serving feels that way to you, I recommend that you serve. Practice enough with it that you can do it confidently and quickly.
Feel free to ask more questions.
Gary
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Gary,
ReplyDeleteBruce Smith showed me your system on the Shogun. I used it on my topshots to land a 222 and 3 in 150+ range, 2 of the 150+’s on the same topshot. I like the fact that there is a visual indication when the right amount of force is used on the knot. With crimps I always worried about under/over crimping. And hairline cracks. Congratulations on your research.
stew
Hi David,
ReplyDeleteThanks for trying out my nail knot "nub" design. I am just trying to add more margin of safety against connection failures. If you are interested in hearing more of the development details, or you want to know my installation details to achieve maximum strength, you should be able to find me at the Fred Hall show in the Izorline booth (the Accurate booth will probably also know where I am).
On my Jan trip this year on the American Angler, I got a Salas TNT stuck on the bottom at the Morgan bank with my 135# outfit. I ended up breaking (more like shreaded) off the 135# spectra with my Accurate 50, but the nub connection to the 200 spectra and the hollow-hollow splice to the 135# spectra held up. This connection also works for 300# mono to 300# spectra. The spectra broke at 357# and the connection showed no damage.
A really ridiculously short version is being tested on the Royal Star tagging trip. Also, the Accurate RP trip has Jack Nilsen using my connections. I have been giving one-on-one instructions on trips that I run (American Angler Jan 5-16, 2010 and Red Rooster III Dec 11-21, 2009. Thank you again, and hope to compare notes to see if the connection can be made even better.
Gary Teraoka
Gary, this is a fascinating method of securing the topshot. I talked to Brian Simms from the Royal Star last week regarding the nail knot/nub connection but didn't get an 'in depth' report. I was far more focused at that time on just hearing the basics!
ReplyDelete1-Any info you can share info and results on the 'ridiculously short' version now?
2-Are you gluing the whole mess (from nail knot to nail knot) or just the areas where the nail knots are?
3-Any other tips or tidbits as I start messing around with this? I don't go out again until Jan 5 on the Royal Star and want to try this out before building topshots for that trip.
Thanks!
Jim
Hi Jim,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your interest in the connection system using nail knots. Brian Sims was doing me a favor and doing some on-ocean testing to confirm how much clamping (holding capacity) my nail knots can generate. That was a very special test specimen. There were a lot of tricks in that small connection, that are not easy to perform. For a more realistic connection, please use 2 to 3 ft of mono inserted into the hollow spectra. First install a nail knot on the mono between 2 to 3 ft from the end (this is the nub). Next insert the mono into the spectra (push the spectra over the nub). Then a nail knot on top of the spectra. One last nail knot at the end of the spectra to make it a clean termination so it won't hang up on the guides. I am on the pro staff for Accurate and Izorline. I run the American Angler 10.5 day trip (Jan 5 - 16). You should be able to find me at the Point Loma landing the same day you leave on the Star. I also am planning on being on the Red Rooster 3 on their Dec 11 trip. I frequent tackle shops in the South Bay (Yo's, Baja Fish Gear, Pete's Just for Fishing). They are familiar with my connection and know how to get in touch with me. Contact Baja Fish Gear as I may be giving a seminar on the connection this Sunday (May 24).
Thanks,
Gary
Jim,
ReplyDeleteSorry, but my first reply did not answer all of your questions. The short connection held with no signs of slippage. Brian fished the same connection to land 6 to 8 Tuna in the 100# to 150# class and 15 sharks. At that point the 40 ft of mono was now only 4 ft. so Brian changed out the connection and did this with 2 more test connections. All 3 short test connections were fished on as many fish as there was mono left with no sign of slippage. Part of my design accounts for connection slippage from repeat use on multiple fish. I glue over all the nail knots and about 2 inches beyond the nail knots.
Gary